Calley Means, a former top adviser to Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., spent a Friday interview on “The Joe Rogan Experience” unloading on outgoing White House chief of staff Susie Wiles, arguing she steered the Trump administration into a consistent bow toward corporate interests on health policy. The interview ran two hours, which is roughly 118 minutes longer than most people need to explain that money talks.

Means, a Kennedy ally who helped build the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement, resigned from the administration two weeks ago after clashing with the White House and growing frustrated over the lack of progress on key MAHA priorities. He told Rogan that Wiles and her allies - both inside and outside the White House - allegedly undermined what he described as politically popular efforts to improve Americans’ health, including regulating kratom, flavored e-cigarettes and sugary beverages.

“The simple reality in why I left is that there is a very concentrated group of people in the Trump administration that are antagonistic to what people voted for and are, frankly - I think it’s very clear - doing things for other reasons,” Means said.

The former Health and Human Services (HHS) official said Wiles was laser focused on making sure special interests were contributing financially to both the administration and the GOP so they could have a monetary advantage in the midterms. “Susie said to me many times, ‘We need money for the midterms, Calley. We need money for the midterms,’” Means said. He also claimed Wiles once told him directly, “I need the money from the sugar people to win the midterms.”

Means told Rogan that Wiles essentially ran the White House, saying she had a “stranglehold on any policy decision.” The Hill has reached out to the White House for comment, presumably to ask whether the sugar people had any comment either.

Wiles was a lobbyist before joining the Trump administration, and Means said she spent her career taking money from the highest paying clients, including from the pharmaceutical and pesticide industries as well as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. On Friday, President Trump announced Wiles would leave her post and longtime White House adviser Stephen Miller would replace her starting next week.

In a lengthy post to social platform X reacting to Wiles’s departure, Kennedy defended the administration’s efforts to date, saying in part he and Trump “intend to keep fighting until the American people - not corporate influence - drive our health policies.”

Means also criticized Wiles and the administration’s handling of issues crucial to the MAHA movement, including the pesticide glyphosate, a key ingredient in the weedkiller Roundup. The Trump administration spurred significant MAHA outrage when it issued an executive order calling for “adequate supply” of glyphosate-based herbicides for national security reasons. The order was issued in February, just before the Supreme Court was about to hear oral arguments in a case that would determine whether Bayer, the maker of Roundup, could receive immunity from lawsuits alleging the weedkiller caused cancer.

Means told Rogan that a Wiles staffer “sat me down, put the EO on the table and said it’s not up for discussion.” He went on to allege Wiles called Kennedy’s office and said, “We’re not discussing this.” He also said current FDA commissioner nominee Heidi Overton worked with the Department of Justice to draft a legal argument about why the Supreme Court should take up Bayer’s case and limit its lawsuit liability for some pesticide-related health harms. Ultimately, the Supreme Court took the case and sided with the pesticide companies.

The former Kennedy adviser also expressed frustration at the administration’s delays in defining “ultra-processed food,” another key MAHA priority. “The amount of vitriol and lobbying on this issue, just having a simple definition out, because the food companies don’t want people to know the truth,” he said. The definition, apparently, remains as elusive as a straight answer at a lobbying dinner.

The Hill’s Rachel Frazin contributed to this report.